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T O P I C    R E V I E W
David Posted - 14 July 2005 : 8:49:40 PM
After the discussion on the differences between the 28 and the 30,here is what the 28 looks like, in this picture the hull tapers back to the skeg where the photo of the 30 looks flat.


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This shows the rudder shape that comes out past the transom.


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And those sleek lines, yes there is a keel in front of the rudder.

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Hope this works.
David.
20   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
akeir Posted - 05 June 2006 : 01:47:47 AM
We used to use a Blooper on the S&S34 I used to race.

It has a very narrow wind angle range from almost dead downwind to about .. oh about 30 deg off being dead down wind.. (This was years ago .. I stopped racing S&S34,s about 20 years ago)..

It is measuered as a headsail and is flown at the same time as a spinaker. It is made from spinnaker fabric, so hopefully matches your spinakker in colours.

The idea is that you have your spinaker up on the windward side of the boat and your Blooper up on the other side. It made life very interesting.

You must have a very saggy halyard and try and allow the sail to get as far away from the spinaker as possible, almost allowing the foot to drag along the top of the water. You almost need someone triming the halyard as well as the sheet. The other critical thing was that you must trim it by the leach not the luff, as the air flow is from the leach to the luff, the opposite direction from all other sails.

You also had to be prepared to raise and lower it often, which wasn't such a big hassle because there was no spinaker pole, but the sail can suddenly become a sea anchor if allowed to drag too low. (We had to sticky tape up our blooper off the East Coast of Tasmania after one such incident on the Great Circle Race .. the sticky lasted amazingly well.. the sailmaker didn't even try and repair it any better)

With most modern racing boats going to fractional rigs the bloopers don't seem to appear anymore. Also sailors are much more tuned these days to sailing for apparent wind and avoiding the need to hoist a circus tent to get downwind sail area.

I have a picture somwhere of us flying our blooper on Eastern Morning on a Melbourne to Hobart. If I can find it I will post it...

I don't know how much of a difference it made. I suspect all the effort that went into flying the blooper took attention away from setting the kite to it's optimum. Other schools of thought were that it helped to balance the loads on the boat to reduce the chance of rounding up.

Any way it was a lot of fun to sail with .. Oh one other thing. NEVER TRY AND GYBE A BLOOPER...It will only end in tears, that is tears that the sailmaker must fix..

Cheers


Andrew


LCJOHNSTON Posted - 29 September 2005 : 07:04:27 AM
Was lucky enough to be in the lead group of 5 on a kite run up on one of the Hammo races recently - I can tell you that looking back at 95 kites chasing you is a real wall of colour! As Sasha says, there must have been every hue of psychological warfare in that bunch!
Sasha Posted - 28 September 2005 : 7:28:51 PM
Someday someone is going to need to explain what the urge is to make one's spinnaker the most revolting choice of colours imaginable (especially against the colour of the hull and such). It seems that spinnakers are a form of psychological warfare against other crews in a race...If you can actually indice nasea then you gain time on them or something.

Sandringham has two truly special spinnakers in its fleet of big yachts. One is pink with a grey outlined green swirling spiral and the other is TARTAN! (black, yellow and red picnic blanket type tartan).

I know the rainbow monstrocities form the 70's were something to behold....but that was the 70's....we are supposed to have outgrown that, right?


:)


Sasha
Chris Cope Posted - 28 September 2005 : 6:42:10 PM
No, it is a huge lightweight code zero type of spinaker. Rod has another which they had for the E26, which they never got to use & it is under the house too.
They had two Pink Kites on the Hagar II (E26), which were beautiful kites. The biggie won three nationals & the new small pinky they never got to use & it is still in the bag brand new & all went with the sale of the E26.
Chris.
Splinter Posted - 28 September 2005 : 6:37:39 PM
Guys, who ever does this wide format "Stop it" it a pain !!
Splinter Posted - 28 September 2005 : 6:34:29 PM
Chris, on the weekend you have got to show me this "Blooper", I have not an idea of what you are talking about. Please bring it and we will lay it out. I would imagine that is is a small heavy weather kite. ??
cheers,
Chris Cope Posted - 28 September 2005 : 6:16:50 PM
Oh yes! forgot the blooper. We have a white & I think, yellow coloured blooper which is stored under Rods house. Cannot see us ever using it. Would prefer the bigger light weight kite which I've been dreaming about for up to 12 knots. Like Kevin we may rashionalise our sail locker when we go for the newies as well as using exotics if the sailmaker thinks they are warrented.
Chris.
Splinter Posted - 28 September 2005 : 5:44:36 PM
This is a great subject as to where the balance is between headsails & main and kites.
With my sail combo, and I have no windgear so it is from my guestumists of wind strengths.
Full main & #1 12 - max 14 knots.
& #2 16 - max 22 knots.
& #3 blade 22 - 35 +
1st Reef & #3 at about 30 to 35 knots.
2nd Reef & #3 have been to 54 knots and still racing. Needed many beers once on the mooring.
GO HOME Anything higher than 55, bear poles and start the noisy thing and go HOME.
This is a brief criteria for "Splinter" so far as sail. We have a twin track on the forestay with a prefeeder. I am looking at putting another pre/feeder on or to adjust the sails so they come out ot the prefeeder when the sails are up.
On the Main I have reefing lines in all the time and are ready to deploy at any time. I would think in the future I will bring the reefing lines back to the cockpit so the crew do not have to go on deck to reef.
With Kites, Chris has been talking about Hagars kites and he still has to play. Ok we have 2 kites,
1 x 1.5 oz which we use in heavier weather and reaching as we had to last Saturday. More reaching than heavier weather.
1 x 0.75 oz, this has big shoulders, will reachs in light airs but is a nighmare in the gusts so all you can do is run off. It is our best kite, I love it. We had it built by Shorty for the Batemans Bay Rageatta if we got a NE'ly up to 20 knots. Hasn't worked as yet, but, save this space because it may work one year.
Would be interested to hear from other boats but don't hold back or BS. We only race together a couple of time a year so the truth would be good and foster our sport.
cheers,
David Posted - 28 September 2005 : 3:35:19 PM
Tony,
Most of my sails have seen better days.

But i have just had the #1 changed so i can run it up the furler, i think i will go this way at the moment and make the decision wether to remove the furler when i get the rigging done(a 2006 project), then i can base any new sails on that decision.

With the main i find it does not change the performance a great deal where ever i set it, it has provisions for a reef but there is ne cunningham or the boom does not have reefing lines or provision so i doubt the main was ever reefed.

Someone told me once that if you are reefing a main on an Endeavour you might want to consider going home, as it must be blowing a gale.

I have a big kite that hopefully will see daylight this weekend.

David.
Chris Cope Posted - 28 September 2005 : 2:24:14 PM
Tony,
That is very much how we have found the Hagar to perform best. We have sailed in 20knots & gusts up to 25 with the full main & with different headsails depending upon the wind strength. We have a sail locker which includes the No1, 2 & 3, which is a blade as well as a Yankee cut which we call our No4. There is also a Storm jib, which we have not had up yet. We think the No4 is going to be really good at sea in a blow. We still have problems with our mainsails, both of which are in good condition, but of poor quality cloth & cut, both being too full.
In time we will sort out what is the best for the boat with our sailmaker & will order a new main to start with, and then new headsails.
Both our Kites look good, although I would like to get a really bigger No1 kite.
No doubt the 40th Regatta will sort out some of our thoughts through performance or lack of.
Chris.
Tony Bright Posted - 28 September 2005 : 1:40:10 PM
Hey David

Great to hear that you finally got to play in some good breeze. I have been playing with the sail configuration on Mist over the winter and found that from 15-25 knots upwind I run a full main (its a fully battned main with great shape) and our working #3. I find if I run my #2 in more than about 15 knots I continually round up. I have tried putting reef in the main and keeping #2 but do not get better performance.

I was always taught that you try to keep your big heady up and reef down the main but not with Mist. Maybe its a thing about the E28's

Any interesting thoughts on this?

Tony
david_eastwood Posted - 26 September 2005 : 10:20:30 AM
The half tonners (and Quarter Tonners too) are having a bit of a resurgence in Europe: http://www.halftonclass-europe.net/index.php
LCJOHNSTON Posted - 25 September 2005 : 7:59:26 PM
There is still lots of "Half Tonners" down here in Hobart still racing. They all carry the sail number prefix "H" to signify "half ton". My E30 MkII "Caroline" still has her original sail number "H3". All of the half tonners I know of in Hobart are plus or minus a few inches around 30 foot LOA. These boats were the smallest allowed to race in the big offshore races that finish in Hobart each Xmas. As mentioned above, "half tonners" were IOR designs and all of the ones down here I can think of have their rudders under the boat (ie; nothing past the stern like the E28 above).
David Posted - 24 September 2005 : 10:29:32 PM
finaly got Bon Doobie out in some breeze today.

8-10, gusts upto 20, and as Tony say's with Scotch Mist, Bon Doobie will heel over.

We constantly had the toe rail 1-2" above the water and a few times we had her under the water, so even the flat bum and beam you can get a good bit of lean, and even though the feel was that she wanted to round up, you could always had control and could steer her straight.

And she is so easy to control, you get the feel for her in 5 minutes, but she does get heavy on the tiller.

I am still using the cut down heady on the furler which seems to perform well at 10+ even though i think it's a bit stretched and out of shape.

David.
Sasha Posted - 16 July 2005 : 11:47:14 PM
Okay. I think this will be neither completely satisfactory nor completely accurate...but here goes.

The IOR era saw literally hundreds of rule changes over the period of its dominence.

The idea was not to buid fast boats, but to come up with a measuring system that made boats equal on the water. To this end, the idea was frequently to build slower boats and on occassion, less seaworthy boats.
Think of it as an ongoing arms-race between yacht designers and the rules committee.

Some of the famous "bits" left over form the wars are....
Huge masthead rigs (I like them and they make sense for our size of boat....But there were 60footers running around with huge overlapping jibs and a sail wardrobe of 12 headsails),
Sail batten restrictions/bent masts (The IOR set limits of max length for battens to reduce huge sail roach, designers came back with curved, bent masts that had the plate sitting way back and gave the same result....as well as rendering the boat off balanced, but that is a minor detail),
The ever graceful barrel sided hulls. They look really cool, they actually make the boat more rolly in a seaway and why would you voluntarily reduce trafficable deck area? Because it is one of the things the formula measured that year.
Where the rudder sat along the hull. Early IOR designs favoured transom-hung rudders because it allowed the designers to exploit other areas for more speed. Gradually those loopholes were closed and over a period of 6-8 years, boats transitioned to spade rudders that sometimes sat just under the companionway. One pretty but terrible-to-sail-in design has the rudder forwards of the propeller (swap the stern gland and the rudder on an e27 for mental reference). Reversing in that thing is no fun at all, and steering in forwards when you are going slower then a few knots is almost as bad.

As this gets longer and longer, here is a usefull discussion on IOR evolution I scanned from Sailnet.

________________________

Author: Silmaril
The term "Half Tonner" harkens back to the old days of the IOR racing rules. It was known as "Level Racing" in that boats that were measured to the rules formula of the day, and the result was a particular handicap, they would all race togther, first boat accross the line wins. No handicap involved. The classes were Two Ton, One Ton, 3/4 Ton, Half Ton, Quarter Ton.

In size ranges, Two Ton boats were approximately 42 feet, One Ton about 37', 3/4 Ton about 32 feet, Half Ton about 28 feet, and Quarter Ton about 24 feet.

The actual term "Ton" is a reference to an old, I think French, term having to do with the drayage capacity of a particular sailing vessel. Commercial boats were rated by their "Ton" regarding their waterline length and their sail area and displacement.


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Date: Jun. 28 2005 4:34 PM
Author: Jeff_H (burr.halpern@annapolis.net)
A couple other minor points that I would add is that as the IOR rule changed (and it was constantly changing) the sizes of boats changed as well, so that the Heritage One ton was 37 feet, but the 10 years later J-41, which was also a one tonner, was 41 feet.

I beleive that the term came from an old race cup, "The One Ton Cup" that predated IOR in which commercial vessels rated at one ton of cargo capacity raced against each other. I think the cup was actually English and not French but Simaril may be right about its French origins.

These days old one tonners are a dime a dozen. They were generally poorly built and poorly engineered since the rule was constantly changing and they would be obsolete long before they wore out. There is nothing so obsolete as a an old IOR era grand prix level race boat (except perhaps an old CCA era grand prix level race boat). They were fragile and difficult boats to sail, not especially fast in an absolute sense, they took big crews and very large sail inventories. The hardware was crude and the sail changes were frequent. They took jib sheet grinders with names like "Moose" or "Animal", if you get the picture.

Also as a side note, there was also a mini-ton class that was under 24 feet.

Jeff
______________________________________________

So yeah, think of it as an evolutionary process. The E28 was built to comply with the earlier standards of the rule, but unlike many boats was built bloody well and with an eye to its sailing qualities rather then as a aquatic go-cart where safety and comfort were not an issue.

Sasha
David Posted - 16 July 2005 : 9:57:06 PM
Thanks Sasha, i went and done some reading on IOR designs and rules.

Not being a Marine architect or a Hydrodynamic engineer to understand the full reasoning of the design rules, the couple of things that i did note, was that of the long waterline which the 28 has for increased speed

It also seems that under IOR rules rudders were moved further forward to reduce the formulae without changing the waterline length giving them an advantage on handicap.

The 28 definately didn't follow that process, considering the rudder hangs out past the transom.

So i doubt she was built to take in the full extent of the IOR rules.

David.
Sasha Posted - 16 July 2005 : 12:07:40 AM
The 28's are reported to be built for the half-ton cup racing system, which was part of IOR and not JOG (What the rest of the endeavours were built to)

Do a google search of the ton, half ton and quarter ton racing classes under the IOR system (Pre-Fastnet disaster).

Sasha
David Posted - 15 July 2005 : 7:32:03 PM
I can't comment on how Bon Doobie sails as i have only had her out once in about a steady 8kt breeze on lake Macquarie.

Over the next few weeks i will be out getting the hang of her.

As i wrote in the discussion on the E30 topic she looks nothing like a 30 (Gladstone boat) even with a bad picture.

The 28 must have its own hull shape.

It would be good to find out why it is different from the 30 or even a 26, was it built for a certain class in it's day.

Chris is right the keel and rudder are very sharp angled, like 2 shark fins upside down.

David.
Sasha Posted - 15 July 2005 : 2:18:20 PM
Here are some photos from Chris. Hagar looks a lovely boat, I only had time to upload MOST of the pics he sent, as there seemed to be some confusion with the numbers/names his camera issued, so that the files would not save without stating they were already overwriting files of the same name. I will sort it out shortly, but this ought to get you going.

[img]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/sasha/HAGAR-JULY05B.JPG[/img]

[img]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/sasha/HAGAR-JULY05H.JPG[/img]

Others can be found here:

http://home.armourarchive.org/members/sasha/HAGAR-JULY05D.JPG

http://home.armourarchive.org/members/sasha/HAGAR-JULY05J.JPG

http://home.armourarchive.org/members/sasha/HAGAR-JULY05S.JPG

http://home.armourarchive.org/members/sasha/HAGAR-JULY05T.JPG

http://home.armourarchive.org/members/sasha/HAGAR-JULY05Y.JPG

http://home.armourarchive.org/members/sasha/HAGAR-JULY05Z.JPG


Cheers
Sasha
Tony Bright Posted - 15 July 2005 : 1:48:26 PM
Hi Guys

Thought I would respond with Mist's sailing habits. Loves to heel a bit (20knts) but very difficult to put the gunnel in the water due the beam. Great in a sea with virtually no water over the decks again due to the beam. We point very well with the #3 sheeted inside the stays and OK under #2. She does like a bit of helm to windward and down wind with little or no wandering and not much helm.

We perform very well against the Compass 28, Clansman, Hutton 28 and boats of a similar style.

Tony

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