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Chris Cope
Skipper

Australia
2350 Posts

Posted - 15 June 2005 :  2:58:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Let me re-fraze the question. The lower stays are loose & the leeward innstay in downright floppy when going to windward as well as carrying a kite. Should they be slack to leeward, firm or tight? I belive that they are too slack.
We may have a little too much rake in the mast, from what Iam hearing? We are carrying about a mitre or more.
How tight should the main shrowds be?
When going to windwards the forestay sags by about half a metre & the leach of the headsail curls to windwards, even though I pulled the crap out of the halliard to get plenty of luff tension in the jib.
Open to suggestions?
Chris.
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Splinter
Helmsman

Australia
500 Posts

Posted - 15 June 2005 :  3:41:22 PM  Show Profile  Visit Splinter's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Chris, I think this would be a great question to put to the Cole Truck, Col Cole. My thoughts are that because we do not have swept back spreader, both the Main Stay and the lower stays should be reasonably taught, when going to windward in a breeze the lower stay on the leeward side is loose but this can be tightened by the baby stay.
Lets wait for Col's comments.
cheers,

"Splinter"
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Sasha
Helmsman

838 Posts

Posted - 15 June 2005 :  3:53:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
that's lower shroud.
And my undertsanding was that the babystay was to put a de-powering bend in the mast in the same way as fractional rigs do by aplying extra tension to the backstay.
With a masthead rig,applying extra backstay tension just cranks the whole mast back a bit, it does not give you that characteristic bend. The baby-stay lets you crank back on the top of the mast with the backstay and crank forwards on the middle of the mast with the baby-stay, thus giving you that cupped mainsail and flattened foresail configuration that so many racing boats love to play with.

Sasha

...who may be halucinating all of this, including the keyboard in front if him.


_
The more I know about horses, the more I love sailboats.
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Splinter
Helmsman

Australia
500 Posts

Posted - 15 June 2005 :  6:14:12 PM  Show Profile  Visit Splinter's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Sasha, Yes, that correct.
flatten it out.
cheers,

"Splinter"
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Chris Cope
Skipper

Australia
2350 Posts

Posted - 15 June 2005 :  6:20:44 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for your input guys. What you are saying Sasha makes sense regarding the mast bent & de-powering the main via tensioning the baby stay.
Sorry if my spelling is NBG. I just go for it without a spell check.
Rod Childs will be back from playing Army this weekend & we will get down to some serious tuning from now on-in. We are starting from scratch, not knowing the boat or class. However we will master her and have her competitive by October.
Chris.
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Splinter
Helmsman

Australia
500 Posts

Posted - 15 June 2005 :  6:23:34 PM  Show Profile  Visit Splinter's Homepage  Reply with Quote
cheers, Guys, going to the Club for the State or Origin.
Bus will be here soon.
Go the Blues !

"Splinter"
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Chris Cope
Skipper

Australia
2350 Posts

Posted - 15 June 2005 :  7:32:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There is no escaping football tonight. My son has about eighteen of his mates around to watch the state of origin on our big TV screen. Yeh Blues!!!
They are eating us out of house & home upstairs! Chris.
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LCJOHNSTON
Helmsman

Australia
258 Posts

Posted - 18 June 2005 :  10:20:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Chris, That amount of forestay sag when going to windward is a heap - if you can get that fixed you should be able to point a heap higher on the breeze. We went to a 32:1 purchase system on the backstay and gained a lot of height by being able to get the backstay tension right (hence removing a fair bit of forestay sag). With that much sag, perhaps the forestay length is too long (I don't think you would be able to remove that much sag without ripping the rig out if you used the backstay). Using the halyard to remove sag could end up in grief as the halyard is trying to do the job of the forestay (forestay wire is stonger tan the halyard!). I should also point out I am not an expert in this stuff - a good rigger who races would be a very good guy to talk with - pay him/her to come out for a sail with you. I also use a rigging tension device to check the shroud tensions and as they stretch (new ones recently) I redo them. You use it with the same backstay tension and mainsheet tension each time, otherwise you cannot compare it.

Leigh Ex E30 MkII "Caroline" Hobart
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LCJOHNSTON
Helmsman

Australia
258 Posts

Posted - 18 June 2005 :  10:27:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have done a fair bit of offshore racing on half tonners (not E30's but boats of simular size and rig). We use the baby stay to provide rig support in heavy conditions to prevent the mast from pumping. Not too sure about its use otherwise. Also, beware of having them on really tight - can develop a heap of strain in them if you put them on with the backstay loose and then crank the backstay on. We bent a babystay fitting by doing this during the Soverign Series last year.

Leigh Ex E30 MkII "Caroline" Hobart
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Go Flow
Helmsman

Australia
751 Posts

Posted - 18 June 2005 :  10:56:32 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi all,
The stability of all the Endeavour rigs is very dependent on the baby stay and the lowers. I have broken two masts when either the baby stay or a lower gave way. I strongly advise against making the baby stay adjustable by putting a block and tackle arrangement at deck level. The loads developed on the baby stay must be extremely high when flying a shy kite in strong winds. Take my word for it!
Good Sailing
Adrian
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LCJOHNSTON
Helmsman

Australia
258 Posts

Posted - 19 June 2005 :  01:16:13 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The baby stay on "Caroline" goes to a fitting on the foredeck which is strongly bolted through the deck. Under the deck in this position is a strengthening piece of wood approx 60mm wide by 20mm thick that runs across the boat under the deck in the fibreglass layup. There is no rod or simular running from under the deck down onto the hull to take all the strain (this is normal on boats I have sailed on that use a heap of baby stay tension). If there was a heap of tension on the baby stay on "Caroline" I would be concerned about pulling upwards on the deck (despite the strengthening wood in the fibreglass I mentioned). Are all E30's like this? Obviously if there was a rod down onto the hull, it would be right in the middle of the forward cabin (not too convenient for cruising!). Adrian, sounds like you have had a couple of bad experiences we all need to learn from. At present I have a block and tackle arrangement like you advise against (we remove the baby stay unless it is blowy and also so we can store our RIB). Maybe I need to reconsider....

Leigh Ex E30 MkII "Caroline" Hobart
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Splinter
Helmsman

Australia
500 Posts

Posted - 19 June 2005 :  8:38:01 PM  Show Profile  Visit Splinter's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi, Leigh, Adrian, Chris, Greg and all Endervourer's, had a great day chasing whales again today, One bobbed up in front of me and I thought he or she was going to join me in the cockpit!
Re the Issue of backstays and baby stays I actually took photos of mine today. I do not know how to submit them like Sasha but I will email them to everybody who wants them independantly.
Otherwise I will send them a CD of the photos.
Re the Babystay, (16:1) they are supported through to the steam of the boat. A bugger for Cruising because you have to pull up the V berth to put the support brace in place, so you have to make up the V berth later when you arrive at your achorage.
also for Cruising if you don't push the boat I don't think you would require the brace unless you have 20 knots or more.
I have found that we are starting to think obout the badystay at 12 - 15 knots. And everytime we race we have the brace fitted under the foredeck just in case.
Backstay - I think very important. I think "Splinter" has 32.1 (the same as Leigh's) so to put whatever pressure on is not a problem. I think this helps running the big heddies. I find I can watch the sag on the forestay and adjust as I feal required. (I am still learning about it). When the breeze gets over 20 knots you have to re setup the boat, we go down to a #3 and then setup again. at, I quess 30 knots with the 1st reef.
Only one time so far, (we were at 45 knot+) 2 reefs and the #3 blade. All I could do was put heaps on the B/stay & Backstay and hang on. The mast did not pump and was stable. And yes Chris the lee lower stays was lose but at that stay I did not give a stuff.
I think the way the '30 is set up if you use your head and balance it all up it works well.
I am looking forward to having a Think tank going with all the '30 owners abouts riggs. I appreciate most are different but they perform similar.
I have seen photos of "Swan Song" in full flight under kite when Claude Murphie had it. (I think he & Chris took it to the Whitsunday one winter)
I think Greg Lacey with "Magic Dragon" who is doing a make over in Bunderburg would be doing it rougher that us in Sydney. We can duck over and have a look at somebody elses boat. (Also he dosn't have Broadband) My god we really are in a new age, I hate this "IT" thing, but we depend on it now.
Adrian, I think, and I am no expert but I think you lost your rig because the '26 is a much light rig. The '30 Mast is a telegraph pole compared to the '26. We need to try to meald the mast into the situation at the time. (It takes a lot to bend it)
Sasha, I have a Kodak digital camara. If I could save the photos to either Documents and or the the Desktop, could I cut & paste back into the Forum. Still frustrated we can't post photos.
Tomorrow morning there will be nearly 150 photos posted on our Club website of photos from a race on Saturday. The only delay was because I have spent the weekend on the boat and a big function at the Club Saturday night.
Cheers all.

"Splinter"
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mjsloane
Main Sheet Hand

56 Posts

Posted - 19 June 2005 :  9:52:32 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Adrian,
I'm interested in what you say about having a fixed baby stay I call it the inner forestay, is this the same?. Earlier this year we were hit by a big gust, the front of a southerly that blew up and broke our babystay on my E26.The mast wobbeled around like a fat lady laughing. We pulled the spinnacker topping lift on and that sorted that out. Splinter, it was the day Sirocco lost her mast. Anyway I replaced the innerforestay and the two lowers and changed the innerforestay from fixed to adjustable with a 4:1 purchase system. I have 8:1 backstay purchase. Maybe I don't have enough purchase on either the inner or backstay but when I pull them on tightly, as much as I can get out of them, I don't see any real diiference in the boats performance. I am considering changing back to a fixed innerforestay as it is one less thing for people to fiddle with or let go at the wrong time.
My understanding with these adjustments was that the outhaul on the foot of the main flattens the lower part of the main, the babystay is used to flatten the middle of the main by pulling the mast forward and the backstay pulls the top of the mast back and allows the leach to lay off to windward. Am I correct??. I also have concerns about putting load on an ageing boat. All the load that is applied to the mast is either taken by the deck fittings at the base of the innerforestay or shrouds or pushed through the mast and down to the keel. Don't laugh, I was on a boat that pushed the mast compression post through the "horse type fitting" that it sat on, it wasn't till we tacked and the top of the mast moved 2 feet.
Also after we replaced the lower shrouds we went throught a mast set up procedure. We hung a plumbob from the main halyard and you would expect to see it hanging somewhat behind the mast. Not on my boat, it was about 12 inches to starbord and there was about 8" of rake in the mast. This was with all shrouds looseish. We are only guessing but we think this may have something to do with our lack of pointing ability. The set up procedure is a bit long to go into now but Ian Short advised me how to go about it and it seems to have worked.
I would be interested in anyones thoughts or ideas about what I have discussed.
Regards Michael " The Buzz"
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Go Flow
Helmsman

Australia
751 Posts

Posted - 19 June 2005 :  9:53:31 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi All,
If you had told me an E24 mast could snap at the point where the lowers and babystay meet I would not have believed you prior to my three events. On the first occasion I had a block and tackle arrangement at the base of the babystay. The bottom pulley(new) collapsed under the strain of a shy kite and the mast snapped. On the second occasion a lower stay gave way (should have been replaced) and the mast snapped in the same place. On the third occasion a split pin became dislodged on the cap shroud with the same result. What I believe I am saying here is that it is very important that a babystay or a lower does not release suddenly when under strain. By the way, I have yet to break an E26 mast.
Adrian
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Go Flow
Helmsman

Australia
751 Posts

Posted - 19 June 2005 :  10:04:10 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Michael,
The inner forestay and the babystay are the same to me. The previous response describes my reservations about adjustable babystays.
Adrian
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LCJOHNSTON
Helmsman

Australia
258 Posts

Posted - 20 June 2005 :  05:15:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I guess there are lots of different experiences and we are talking about very different masts across the Endeavour range, and I guess even between Endeavours of the same size!.
I could be wrong here, but to me there is a difference between a baby stay and an inner forestay.
An inner forestay is used to run a sail on (ie; a cutter rig type arrangement), so it is of far stronger wire than a baby stay and (if removeable) will be tensioned tightly using a highfield lever type arrangement, or otherwise is permanently attached - could even run a furler on it.
Baby stays are used for rig stability particularly when the going gets tough, but are not used to run a sail.
Anyone confused yet?
8:1 on the backstay sounds like a lot of physical effort to get not much grunt on it - adding a couple of doublers should work a treat.

Leigh Ex E30 MkII "Caroline" Hobart
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Sasha
Helmsman

838 Posts

Posted - 20 June 2005 :  10:39:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
On an endeavour there is little to no difference between a baby-stay and inner forestay. The baby-stay sits so far back on the deck that it is really only able to run the heavy weather storm foresail. One came with our E26 and we dutifully practiced with it last year. The sail really does NOT need a furler of its own. Since you can pretty much wedge yourself in place with your back to the mast and the sail cradled to your chest as you hank it onto the stay.
It is that small a sail!

Regs call for permanently attached sheets to it, so that takes no time at all.

Basically, and inner forestay on the endeavor would only cary a sail in over 30-35knots....and for most of us, we would not be out there then anyway.

Our baby-stay came with a 2:1 block that did absolutely nothing, so I replaced it with a turnbuckle tensioner that has the built in ring handle. Very nifty.

Our backstay had no means of adjustment at all (Other then the regular trunbuckle), so all mast tuning was done with the babystay (this will not be the system she goes back into the water with, but it served her last skipper very well for 15odd years).

By the way, the little storm sail and the triple reefed main give a really fabulous balance to the boat. We were only playing and testing stuff out in about 18-20knots...but everything was just pushing smoothly and not fighting against itself with that setup.
It did wonders for Margaret's confidence in the boat!

Sasha

_
The more I know about horses, the more I love sailboats.
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Chris Cope
Skipper

Australia
2350 Posts

Posted - 20 June 2005 :  3:38:35 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This is all good stuff guys, keep it going! However with the New Hagar E30, Rod has reminded me that the wires in our rig have & will continue to stretch as we "run-them-in" so to speak. We will be getting the rigger back to re-adjust the tension settings and the sailmaker will be also coming to look at the rig to help make her go & look at the sails. We will be cutting eight inches off the old cruising mainsail to lift the boom, etc etc,
This weekend Rod & I took her out on Saturday afternoon to relieve Rods 3 week withdrawl, it was late & we just motored. Could not get away from football yesterday. Fatherly duties, daughter at soccer & son at rugby league, his side won 56 to 6 and it was stopped early (the mercy rule). Then onto the Manly, Newcastle game. I went home & he went to the movies.
The boat work is to continue.
Chris.
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Splinter
Helmsman

Australia
500 Posts

Posted - 20 June 2005 :  6:24:31 PM  Show Profile  Visit Splinter's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi Guys, For Mike Sloane "the Buzz", that day when your rigging went crazy and I must admit was just down right frightening. One of my mates go 57 knots over the deck. That was the day that "Sirroco" lost his mast here are the photos from the RMYC web site. For anybody else who check it, within 10 minutes we went from 5/10 to 57 knot. And within 30 minutes we went from smooth seas which you would call a Champayane Day to a washing machine !
check the photos. I must admit I was pleased I was in a '30 not anything smaller.

www.rmyc-porthacking.com.au/sailing.division/club_images/20%202%2005/index.htm

also, check out the Endeavours that were out on Saturday ("The Buzz" & "Winsom"). I took a few photos of the fleet (I must admit they were mostly of the RM fleet not CSC)

www.rmyc-porthacking.com.au/sailing.division/club_images/Winter%20Race%204%202005/index.html

By the way, did not see any whales on Saturday but Sunday got beside 3 poods. How great are these wonderful creatures !!
cheers,

"Splinter"
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Chris Cope
Skipper

Australia
2350 Posts

Posted - 20 June 2005 :  7:42:03 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Nice pics Kev, but where are the whales?
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