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Go Flow
Helmsman
Australia
751 Posts |
 Posted - 18 July 2005 : 09:20:19 AM
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Hi Chris,
I suspect your log is reading on the high side. Given it does not vary with tide effects and the theoretical speed for an E30 is less than 7.3knots I think you have an error of about 10%. You could check it against a hand held GPS or do a timed run between two marks of known distance on the harbour. I am very impressed by the speed readings I am getting from my Garmin 72 GPS.
Adrian |
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Splinter
Helmsman
Australia
500 Posts |
Posted - 18 July 2005 : 1:59:39 PM
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Hi Adrian, I think Chris speeds quoted would not be out of the realms of normallity. I've seen 11 knots on our log and it had been calibrated. 20-25 knots NE with kite up and on a wave going to Batemans Bay. Also when coming up to Drummoyne a couple of years ago when you guys from the Lake couldn't get through, we saw 10 knots over the ground with 2 reefs in the main and main only. A real good southerly !
From Jibbon beach to inside the Heads just a touch over 2 hours. (18 nm)
We regularly see 5.5 - 8 working & reaching, depending on the breeze. Hagar last weekend would have just been reaching & running up and down the Harbour and remember he is just off the slip with a clean bum. I'm surprised they didn't do better with only 2 on board.
They certainly will be more accurate when they have their GPS set up. I have a Navman Tracker 500 with a Navman Repeater in the cockpit just above the log (Raythean ST60 Tridata) so we get both over the ground and over the surface. If we want to we can also call up average speed, highest speed and distance on the day, water temperature and timing sequeces for starting. I suppose it can do more but have no need for anything else.
It also sounds like the Hagar boys had a good day.
cheers,
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"Splinter" |
Edited by - Splinter on 18 July 2005 2:04:53 PM |
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david_eastwood
Main Sheet Hand
124 Posts |
Posted - 18 July 2005 : 9:43:12 PM
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I reckon that Hagar log's a bit on flattering side! A fully cocked 40 foot IRC race boat I sail on maxes out at around 7.5 upwind, sailed 10 up...
I reckon a 30 footer would top out at around 6.7 or 6.8 upwind.
Downwind - who knows? My 26 has done north of 12 knots, big breeze, big sea, big headsail, big main! That day we did North Head to Barrenjoey in a smidge over 2 hours (17nm). |
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Rod1950
Main Sheet Hand
39 Posts |
Posted - 18 July 2005 : 10:31:39 PM
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Adrian / Kevin, I have been using a Garmin eTrex hand held GPS for the last few years. With the old Hagar (E26) I always worked on 5.5 KTS going to windward (the manual log only read 4.5 KTS )and down breeze as much as we could get out of her. The best we got out of her was 14 KTS the last time we took her up to the lake.
It was a big sth easter with a big sea running, we had two reefs in and a No 3 up. We were continually running her off the dial of the manual log and got her up to 14 KTS (on the GPS )surfing down waves.
The E26 only has a water line length of 18 feet and if you work out the hull speed on 18 feet it comes to around the 5 KTS. Years ago I did talk to Reg about hull speeds and if I remember correctly he stated it was around 5.5 up breeze and 7 down breeze without catching waves.
Regarding the new E30 (Hagar 1V) when Andy and I took her back to her mooring in Nth Harbour, after sliping her in middle harbour, I took the eTrex and a hand held wind meter out to check out the boats instruments and both sets of dials averaged out the same. At Balmoral we just put up the No 4 and in a 15 KT sth wester were getting up to 5 KTS 3/4 ing down to Manly.
Last week end on the Saturday, the wind was in the west and we reached up and down the harbour. The wind was averaging around 18 KTS but gusting up to 25 KTS. We had the oldest main on, and an old E26 No 2 jib that had been re-cut to look like a yankee and she was hiting the 8 KTS regularly on the way down and back.
On the Sunday we had the newer main and the No 4 up. The wind was more sth west, so after we got past the heads we started to work. The breeze was more steady around 18 to 20 KTS. We were not over powered with a full main and were averageing around 6.5 KTS and geting up to 7 KTS regularly, we were also pointing around 30 degrees. Coming back we were under powered and just playing around reaching and 3/4 ing and she was geting up to 8 KTS and I think we peaked at about 8.65 KTS.
The boat was very dry and easly driven, also it was noticeable that when she healed going to windward we would pick up .5 of a knot in speed.
Had two great sails.
Regards
Rod
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Rod1950
Main Sheet Hand
39 Posts |
Posted - 18 July 2005 : 10:56:48 PM
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David, with out a chart in front of me, what I can remember of the distance between Nth Head and Barrenjoey is approx 10 NM. Two hours for 10 NM means 5 KTS.
Every time we took Hagar Two up to Broken Bay, if the breeze was behind us or the side of us, we always tried two make head to head in just over two hours.
Regards
Rod |
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Go Flow
Helmsman
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 19 July 2005 : 3:45:33 PM
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Hi All,
From the most recent contributions I hope everyone appreciates that working out theoretical hull speeds is a rather dodgy business. There are a multitude of factors that contribute.
I have included the most common calculation below, but also found a "tongue in cheek." version on the "yachtracersonline " website. Rod's comment that the speed increased on healing is relevant in that the waterline length increases as well which is consistent with the theory. This was the reason I give for quoting the E30 theoretical speed as something less than that calculated from the overall length.
Usual version.
Hull Speed(knots) = 1.34 X square root(LWL in feet)
"Tongue in cheek" version.
Hull speed - The maximum theoretical velocity of a given boat through the water, which is 1.5 times the square root of its waterline length in feet, divided by the distance to port in miles, minus the time in hours to sunset cubed.
Adrian
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Splinter
Helmsman
Australia
500 Posts |
Posted - 19 July 2005 : 4:25:19 PM
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I love the Tongue in Cheek version which is about as accurate as any of the calc's are.
Must use that one on some of the straight guys down the Club when they get serious after a few beers.
Have seen a great new boat at Selmans (the swamp - Taren Point) a mate Paul Kelly has had it moulded at Lake Macquarie somewhere and been brought back to Taren Point to be finished by Russell Minto. It will break the hull speed theory, 34' long waterline, flat bum, dagger keel and a lovely wide cockpit. Heaps of room. Will try to post photos later (I'm envious)
Speed is theorical !
cheers, |
"Splinter" |
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Chris Cope
Skipper
Australia
2350 Posts |
Posted - 20 July 2005 : 10:03:05 AM
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The debate about boat speed seems to have now died down a little and it has been interesting to see the different points of view. However there is a fundamental difference between Endeavours up to 26 feet in length as compared to the Bigger Endeavours. E26s' are basically harbour cruiser racers, while 30s' were designed & built for harbour and off shore racing as JOG yachts. It has been a shame that only Kevin in the Splinter has raced offshore in the past few years. With the coming of the Hagar-IV we hope to change this as well as encouraging a revival of offshore Endeavour racing. 8.66 knots is really quite slow when I recall my own racing days in the 14s' and 18s'. I will never again be in a boat like a 14 which will go down wind faster than the wind speed & can leap clean out of the water.
Rod says that it will take us a few years to get the Hagar IV up to off-shore Cat 3 as well as being anywhere near as competitive as the Splinter. We are looking forward to October.
Chris. |
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Rod1950
Main Sheet Hand
39 Posts |
Posted - 20 July 2005 : 8:38:23 PM
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Guy's, a few comparisons between the old Hagar(E26) and the new Hagar (E30). Before we sold the old one, we were able to compare sails.
This is food for thought, regarding power to weight ratios.
The E30 Main is approximately 3 feet longer on the luff than an E26 main, but E26 main is approx 3 feet longer on the foot.
The E26 No1 Jib is approx the same size as the E30 No 2 Jib
The E26 No2 Jib is approx the same size as the E30 No 3 Jib
When see both boats on the water, the E30 looks a hell of a lot bigger, but when you look at the water line beam,it appears not all that much larger than the E26, in comparson with the rest of the boat.
Going to windward, it has completely different characteristics than the E26. The E30 gets hit with a gust and heals, then bounces back as the big balloon sides hit the water. I think our sheethand will like the new boat.
Regards
Rod
with the |
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Splinter
Helmsman
Australia
500 Posts |
Posted - 20 July 2005 : 8:57:05 PM
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Rod, you are 100% correct. Interesting comparision of the '26 sails. I think the 2 boats are horses for courses. Someone said lately that the '26 would have been designed for enclosed, smooth water but can handle a sea with easy. I think even the '24 could handle a good sea but they would be uncomfortable after a while.
What you said about laying over in a gust is correct and it bounces back quickly. We very often have the gunnel in the water and would not even give it a second thought. I prefer to steer from the leeward side and I do get a wet bum every now and then.
I think we all "Endeavourer's" are blessed that we have such good seaworthy boats. Not the fastest but we will always come home.
Will be interested in the sail comparision next time we get 2 or 3 '30 together. I think Oct weekend we may only be able to get visuals of the difference because of the number of boats that could be there.
Bring on Summer.
cheers, |
"Splinter" |
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Splinter
Helmsman
Australia
500 Posts |
Posted - 20 July 2005 : 9:38:10 PM
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Rod, there is one thing that I did not add on the last post. The '30 have no registered sail size and design. So it was up to the sailmaker as to what size the sail were.
I do not think that a #1 off a '26 is larger than my #1. I am about 160% I would think. I will put a few beers on it over the October weekend if any '26 is bigger in a #1. I throw out the challenge.
I would think my #2 would be the size of a normal #1 which will take me to about 18 kts. My #1 will only go to about 12/14 kts and I am overpowered. Where as after the #2 finishes after we have white caps and a bit a spray coming of the waves, we go down to our #3 blade. We can then carry it with reefing the main to about 50 +. We have been in 57 over the deck in Batemans Bay #3 & 2 reefs but my god we were not comfortable (had a crew of 6 so 5 on the rails) but the boat was safe.
cheers, |
"Splinter" |
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David
Helmsman
Australia
232 Posts |
Posted - 20 July 2005 : 11:00:59 PM
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So with all these speeds how does the 28 shape up with the same rig as a 30, lighter and i think the waterline is no shorter due to the transom.
i have a lot of learning and tuning to do yet, then i will put the 180% heady up
David. |
If vegeterians love animals, why do they eat their food? |
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Chris Cope
Skipper
Australia
2350 Posts |
Posted - 21 July 2005 : 04:45:12 AM
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David, yours' is a good question. The answer may take a couple of years to work out around the race tracks. The theory may be that you are faster on the harbour on flatter water than a 30, as may be the 26 footers, while the bigger boats, ie, 27,28 & 30s' should be faster off shore in a sea & with more wind. Boat weights, sails, crew performance as well as the conditions will all contribute. Having now seen the photos of your boat it is apparent that the underwater shape of the E30s' are different with the v-shaped keel as well as the extension to the rudder skeg. This will most likely make them a bit slower in the tacks but better sea boats.
As previously stated lets see at the October Regatta. We hope our boat is fast and we shall keep working on her. But until we race against some bench marks like Splinter & the Imperium we are only guessing.
Chris. |
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Chris Cope
Skipper
Australia
2350 Posts |
Posted - 22 July 2005 : 3:51:35 PM
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For anyone doubting the ability of E30s' to do the quoted speeds, may I suggest you read Kevin Swadlings post of 3 March 2003 under Mast Inversion.
It says a lot about the ability of the boat to go into the high wind ranges. Rod Childs says that in their E26 that they would be sails down & going home long before the 35 knots of wind speed quoted by Kevin. All this leads me to conclude that the E30 is going to be a very stable sailing platform.
This weekend we will be out both afternoons sailing training and working in the mornings on the boat at North Harbour.
Chris. |
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Splinter
Helmsman
Australia
500 Posts |
Posted - 22 July 2005 : 5:45:33 PM
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Hi Endeavourers, Chris/Rod and all the Hagarour's (right term ?) you will have a great sail this weekend, forecast 10-15, so take the prawns and beer and enjoy yourselves.
I've come down with the verlurgie and have largities, so emails are great and I don't have to talk. We are going to the Gold Coast for 4 days on Sunday so will interesting reading when I get back.
We will be starting to bring "Splinter" back up to safety went I get back.
It will be up to the crew whether we do Cat 3 or 4. If I get enough starters for Batemans Bay Regatta then I will do Cat 3, otherwise Cat 4, and Daniel & I will cruise again this Xmas & new year. I am look forward to this coming season and those 5 - 7 days in Jervis Bay.
Graham and all the Endeavourers in Jervis Bay I would love to meet and spend time over the summer break.
To all Endeavourer we will be in Jervis Bay from about the 10 th of Jan to about the 17th. check out the web site for Jervis Bay. It's beatuifull.
just think 2 day then back to work ohhh !!!!!
cheers
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"Splinter" |
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david_eastwood
Main Sheet Hand
124 Posts |
Posted - 22 July 2005 : 8:52:50 PM
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Nope, 17.1 as the crow flies )according to Google Earth, I'll confess, cos I haven't a chart in front of me either), a bit further if you're a Penguin...
quote:
Originally posted by Rod1950
David, with out a chart in front of me, what I can remember of the distance between Nth Head and Barrenjoey is approx 10 NM. Two hours for 10 NM means 5 KTS.
Every time we took Hagar Two up to Broken Bay, if the breeze was behind us or the side of us, we always tried two make head to head in just over two hours.
Regards
Rod
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Shed boy #1, the one holding the stick thingy. |
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Splinter
Helmsman
Australia
500 Posts |
Posted - 23 July 2005 : 5:22:52 PM
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I must admit I would have thought it would have been more to the 15-20 nm mark. I've alway thought of it being about the same as Pt Hacking to the Harbour, then Harbour to Pittwater.
I think we should check but it's a great day's sail. Who care on the exact !
I am interested in the Goggle thing I must check that out. I had an email from a friend with the site for a Satalite photo of where you live.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=san+onofre,ca&ll=-34.000,150.500&spn=1.0,1.0&t=k&hl=en
Well cheers, the wife has just been in and given me a serve I have got to go & pack for next week. (plenty of time left)
cheers,
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"Splinter" |
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Chris Cope
Skipper
Australia
2350 Posts |
Posted - 24 July 2005 : 7:28:53 PM
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This weekend saw a few odd-jobs being conducted on the Hagar IV with back-up cleats for the halliards as well rails to hang wet weather gear ect. We also found that there is a small but persistent leak in the stern gland. The wind was very light & we only had a late run to Middle Harbour on Saturday. Great weather, though we would prefer 20 knots. Here's hoping for next weekend.
Chris. |
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Chris Cope
Skipper
Australia
2350 Posts |
Posted - 26 July 2005 : 1:12:36 PM
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Re- E30 Boat & Sail Plans.
I have just sent an email to Colin Cole requesting if there are line plans as well as sail plans which are available for the E30.
We are looking at doing a sail plan for our sail maker as well as making plans for all the safety requirements for getting the Hagar IV up to Catagory 3.
So if anyone else has or know who might have a copy which can be borrowed & reproduced, it would be appreciated if you could pass that onto Rod Childs or myself.
Chris. |
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David
Helmsman
Australia
232 Posts |
Posted - 26 July 2005 : 9:41:06 PM
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Chris, took Bon Doobie out on Saturday aswell, there was about 0-2kts around the bridge the tide was moving me quicker.
We motored round to the heads to hopefull get a breeze,my guess was we had 5kts at best and that lasted 20 min.
But at least i got the feel of how she performs in a very light breeze and how to keep forward momentum (you got to love moving at .2-.3kts)
So it was motor back and drink at DSC before dark.
But i was out sailing and thats what it's all about.
David. |
If vegeterians love animals, why do they eat their food? |
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A New E30
