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David
Helmsman

Australia
232 Posts

Posted - 14 July 2005 :  8:49:40 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
After the discussion on the differences between the 28 and the 30,here is what the 28 looks like, in this picture the hull tapers back to the skeg where the photo of the 30 looks flat.


Download Attachment: [img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] IMAGE001.JPG
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This shows the rudder shape that comes out past the transom.


Download Attachment: [img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] IMAGE002.JPG
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And those sleek lines, yes there is a keel in front of the rudder.

Download Attachment: [img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] IMAGE003.JPG
36.61 KB

Hope this works.
David.

If vegeterians love animals, why do they eat their food?

Chris Cope
Skipper

Australia
2350 Posts

Posted - 15 July 2005 :  06:26:03 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi David, Great photos of your E28. My first impression is that she is very different to our E30. The Bon Doobie is much flatter on the bottom & has a more dagger shaped keel, where the E30 which have a more V-shaped underwater keel. The second observation is that she looks smaller overall & thirdly she has a very differently shaped rudder than the E30.
Your photos are really good & I will have another attempt to paste photos.
Good sailing. Chris.
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Sasha
Helmsman

838 Posts

Posted - 15 July 2005 :  07:45:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Chris, if all else fails, you can send them to me and I will host them and put them up for you here.

_
The more I know about horses, the more I love sailboats.
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LCJOHNSTON
Helmsman

Australia
258 Posts

Posted - 15 July 2005 :  09:23:07 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree with Chris' comments comparing the E30 to the E28 photos - just as valid for my E30 Mk2.

Leigh Ex E30 MkII "Caroline" Hobart
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Splinter
Helmsman

Australia
500 Posts

Posted - 15 July 2005 :  11:27:11 AM  Show Profile  Visit Splinter's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I must agree with both Chris & Leigh, the 28 is totally different under the water. My thoughts it would have been designed for the JOG series late 70/80's. With the flat bum and rudder so far back she certainly would have good control & speed under kite. I would imagine you would have to sail them very upright & flat. Where as the '30 loves to lay a shoulder in on a work.
Would be interesting to she how they handles a decent sea. Great looking design though.
Also, I will post photos when I sort out how to do it.
cheers,

"Splinter"
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Tony Bright
F'ore'ard Hand

Australia
19 Posts

Posted - 15 July 2005 :  1:48:26 PM  Show Profile  Visit Tony Bright's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi Guys

Thought I would respond with Mist's sailing habits. Loves to heel a bit (20knts) but very difficult to put the gunnel in the water due the beam. Great in a sea with virtually no water over the decks again due to the beam. We point very well with the #3 sheeted inside the stays and OK under #2. She does like a bit of helm to windward and down wind with little or no wandering and not much helm.

We perform very well against the Compass 28, Clansman, Hutton 28 and boats of a similar style.

Tony

Download Attachment: [img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] winter series 2.jpg
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Sasha
Helmsman

838 Posts

Posted - 15 July 2005 :  2:18:20 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here are some photos from Chris. Hagar looks a lovely boat, I only had time to upload MOST of the pics he sent, as there seemed to be some confusion with the numbers/names his camera issued, so that the files would not save without stating they were already overwriting files of the same name. I will sort it out shortly, but this ought to get you going.

[img]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/sasha/HAGAR-JULY05B.JPG[/img]

[img]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/sasha/HAGAR-JULY05H.JPG[/img]

Others can be found here:

http://home.armourarchive.org/members/sasha/HAGAR-JULY05D.JPG

http://home.armourarchive.org/members/sasha/HAGAR-JULY05J.JPG

http://home.armourarchive.org/members/sasha/HAGAR-JULY05S.JPG

http://home.armourarchive.org/members/sasha/HAGAR-JULY05T.JPG

http://home.armourarchive.org/members/sasha/HAGAR-JULY05Y.JPG

http://home.armourarchive.org/members/sasha/HAGAR-JULY05Z.JPG


Cheers
Sasha

_
The more I know about horses, the more I love sailboats.
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David
Helmsman

Australia
232 Posts

Posted - 15 July 2005 :  7:32:03 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I can't comment on how Bon Doobie sails as i have only had her out once in about a steady 8kt breeze on lake Macquarie.

Over the next few weeks i will be out getting the hang of her.

As i wrote in the discussion on the E30 topic she looks nothing like a 30 (Gladstone boat) even with a bad picture.

The 28 must have its own hull shape.

It would be good to find out why it is different from the 30 or even a 26, was it built for a certain class in it's day.

Chris is right the keel and rudder are very sharp angled, like 2 shark fins upside down.

David.

If vegeterians love animals, why do they eat their food?

Edited by - David on 15 July 2005 7:34:32 PM
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Sasha
Helmsman

838 Posts

Posted - 16 July 2005 :  12:07:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The 28's are reported to be built for the half-ton cup racing system, which was part of IOR and not JOG (What the rest of the endeavours were built to)

Do a google search of the ton, half ton and quarter ton racing classes under the IOR system (Pre-Fastnet disaster).

Sasha

_
The more I know about horses, the more I love sailboats.
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David
Helmsman

Australia
232 Posts

Posted - 16 July 2005 :  9:57:06 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks Sasha, i went and done some reading on IOR designs and rules.

Not being a Marine architect or a Hydrodynamic engineer to understand the full reasoning of the design rules, the couple of things that i did note, was that of the long waterline which the 28 has for increased speed

It also seems that under IOR rules rudders were moved further forward to reduce the formulae without changing the waterline length giving them an advantage on handicap.

The 28 definately didn't follow that process, considering the rudder hangs out past the transom.

So i doubt she was built to take in the full extent of the IOR rules.

David.

If vegeterians love animals, why do they eat their food?
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Sasha
Helmsman

838 Posts

Posted - 16 July 2005 :  11:47:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Okay. I think this will be neither completely satisfactory nor completely accurate...but here goes.

The IOR era saw literally hundreds of rule changes over the period of its dominence.

The idea was not to buid fast boats, but to come up with a measuring system that made boats equal on the water. To this end, the idea was frequently to build slower boats and on occassion, less seaworthy boats.
Think of it as an ongoing arms-race between yacht designers and the rules committee.

Some of the famous "bits" left over form the wars are....
Huge masthead rigs (I like them and they make sense for our size of boat....But there were 60footers running around with huge overlapping jibs and a sail wardrobe of 12 headsails),
Sail batten restrictions/bent masts (The IOR set limits of max length for battens to reduce huge sail roach, designers came back with curved, bent masts that had the plate sitting way back and gave the same result....as well as rendering the boat off balanced, but that is a minor detail),
The ever graceful barrel sided hulls. They look really cool, they actually make the boat more rolly in a seaway and why would you voluntarily reduce trafficable deck area? Because it is one of the things the formula measured that year.
Where the rudder sat along the hull. Early IOR designs favoured transom-hung rudders because it allowed the designers to exploit other areas for more speed. Gradually those loopholes were closed and over a period of 6-8 years, boats transitioned to spade rudders that sometimes sat just under the companionway. One pretty but terrible-to-sail-in design has the rudder forwards of the propeller (swap the stern gland and the rudder on an e27 for mental reference). Reversing in that thing is no fun at all, and steering in forwards when you are going slower then a few knots is almost as bad.

As this gets longer and longer, here is a usefull discussion on IOR evolution I scanned from Sailnet.

________________________

Author: Silmaril
The term "Half Tonner" harkens back to the old days of the IOR racing rules. It was known as "Level Racing" in that boats that were measured to the rules formula of the day, and the result was a particular handicap, they would all race togther, first boat accross the line wins. No handicap involved. The classes were Two Ton, One Ton, 3/4 Ton, Half Ton, Quarter Ton.

In size ranges, Two Ton boats were approximately 42 feet, One Ton about 37', 3/4 Ton about 32 feet, Half Ton about 28 feet, and Quarter Ton about 24 feet.

The actual term "Ton" is a reference to an old, I think French, term having to do with the drayage capacity of a particular sailing vessel. Commercial boats were rated by their "Ton" regarding their waterline length and their sail area and displacement.


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Date: Jun. 28 2005 4:34 PM
Author: Jeff_H (burr.halpern@annapolis.net)
A couple other minor points that I would add is that as the IOR rule changed (and it was constantly changing) the sizes of boats changed as well, so that the Heritage One ton was 37 feet, but the 10 years later J-41, which was also a one tonner, was 41 feet.

I beleive that the term came from an old race cup, "The One Ton Cup" that predated IOR in which commercial vessels rated at one ton of cargo capacity raced against each other. I think the cup was actually English and not French but Simaril may be right about its French origins.

These days old one tonners are a dime a dozen. They were generally poorly built and poorly engineered since the rule was constantly changing and they would be obsolete long before they wore out. There is nothing so obsolete as a an old IOR era grand prix level race boat (except perhaps an old CCA era grand prix level race boat). They were fragile and difficult boats to sail, not especially fast in an absolute sense, they took big crews and very large sail inventories. The hardware was crude and the sail changes were frequent. They took jib sheet grinders with names like "Moose" or "Animal", if you get the picture.

Also as a side note, there was also a mini-ton class that was under 24 feet.

Jeff
______________________________________________

So yeah, think of it as an evolutionary process. The E28 was built to comply with the earlier standards of the rule, but unlike many boats was built bloody well and with an eye to its sailing qualities rather then as a aquatic go-cart where safety and comfort were not an issue.

Sasha

_
The more I know about horses, the more I love sailboats.
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David
Helmsman

Australia
232 Posts

Posted - 24 September 2005 :  10:29:32 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
finaly got Bon Doobie out in some breeze today.

8-10, gusts upto 20, and as Tony say's with Scotch Mist, Bon Doobie will heel over.

We constantly had the toe rail 1-2" above the water and a few times we had her under the water, so even the flat bum and beam you can get a good bit of lean, and even though the feel was that she wanted to round up, you could always had control and could steer her straight.

And she is so easy to control, you get the feel for her in 5 minutes, but she does get heavy on the tiller.

I am still using the cut down heady on the furler which seems to perform well at 10+ even though i think it's a bit stretched and out of shape.

David.

If vegeterians love animals, why do they eat their food?
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LCJOHNSTON
Helmsman

Australia
258 Posts

Posted - 25 September 2005 :  7:59:26 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There is still lots of "Half Tonners" down here in Hobart still racing. They all carry the sail number prefix "H" to signify "half ton". My E30 MkII "Caroline" still has her original sail number "H3". All of the half tonners I know of in Hobart are plus or minus a few inches around 30 foot LOA. These boats were the smallest allowed to race in the big offshore races that finish in Hobart each Xmas. As mentioned above, "half tonners" were IOR designs and all of the ones down here I can think of have their rudders under the boat (ie; nothing past the stern like the E28 above).

Leigh Ex E30 MkII "Caroline" Hobart
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david_eastwood
Main Sheet Hand

124 Posts

Posted - 26 September 2005 :  10:20:30 AM  Show Profile  Click to see david_eastwood's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
The half tonners (and Quarter Tonners too) are having a bit of a resurgence in Europe: http://www.halftonclass-europe.net/index.php

Shed boy #1, the one holding the stick thingy.
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Tony Bright
F'ore'ard Hand

Australia
19 Posts

Posted - 28 September 2005 :  1:40:10 PM  Show Profile  Visit Tony Bright's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hey David

Great to hear that you finally got to play in some good breeze. I have been playing with the sail configuration on Mist over the winter and found that from 15-25 knots upwind I run a full main (its a fully battned main with great shape) and our working #3. I find if I run my #2 in more than about 15 knots I continually round up. I have tried putting reef in the main and keeping #2 but do not get better performance.

I was always taught that you try to keep your big heady up and reef down the main but not with Mist. Maybe its a thing about the E28's

Any interesting thoughts on this?

Tony
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Chris Cope
Skipper

Australia
2350 Posts

Posted - 28 September 2005 :  2:24:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Tony,
That is very much how we have found the Hagar to perform best. We have sailed in 20knots & gusts up to 25 with the full main & with different headsails depending upon the wind strength. We have a sail locker which includes the No1, 2 & 3, which is a blade as well as a Yankee cut which we call our No4. There is also a Storm jib, which we have not had up yet. We think the No4 is going to be really good at sea in a blow. We still have problems with our mainsails, both of which are in good condition, but of poor quality cloth & cut, both being too full.
In time we will sort out what is the best for the boat with our sailmaker & will order a new main to start with, and then new headsails.
Both our Kites look good, although I would like to get a really bigger No1 kite.
No doubt the 40th Regatta will sort out some of our thoughts through performance or lack of.
Chris.
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David
Helmsman

Australia
232 Posts

Posted - 28 September 2005 :  3:35:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Tony,
Most of my sails have seen better days.

But i have just had the #1 changed so i can run it up the furler, i think i will go this way at the moment and make the decision wether to remove the furler when i get the rigging done(a 2006 project), then i can base any new sails on that decision.

With the main i find it does not change the performance a great deal where ever i set it, it has provisions for a reef but there is ne cunningham or the boom does not have reefing lines or provision so i doubt the main was ever reefed.

Someone told me once that if you are reefing a main on an Endeavour you might want to consider going home, as it must be blowing a gale.

I have a big kite that hopefully will see daylight this weekend.

David.

If vegeterians love animals, why do they eat their food?
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Splinter
Helmsman

Australia
500 Posts

Posted - 28 September 2005 :  5:44:36 PM  Show Profile  Visit Splinter's Homepage  Reply with Quote
This is a great subject as to where the balance is between headsails & main and kites.
With my sail combo, and I have no windgear so it is from my guestumists of wind strengths.
Full main & #1 12 - max 14 knots.
& #2 16 - max 22 knots.
& #3 blade 22 - 35 +
1st Reef & #3 at about 30 to 35 knots.
2nd Reef & #3 have been to 54 knots and still racing. Needed many beers once on the mooring.
GO HOME Anything higher than 55, bear poles and start the noisy thing and go HOME.
This is a brief criteria for "Splinter" so far as sail. We have a twin track on the forestay with a prefeeder. I am looking at putting another pre/feeder on or to adjust the sails so they come out ot the prefeeder when the sails are up.
On the Main I have reefing lines in all the time and are ready to deploy at any time. I would think in the future I will bring the reefing lines back to the cockpit so the crew do not have to go on deck to reef.
With Kites, Chris has been talking about Hagars kites and he still has to play. Ok we have 2 kites,
1 x 1.5 oz which we use in heavier weather and reaching as we had to last Saturday. More reaching than heavier weather.
1 x 0.75 oz, this has big shoulders, will reachs in light airs but is a nighmare in the gusts so all you can do is run off. It is our best kite, I love it. We had it built by Shorty for the Batemans Bay Rageatta if we got a NE'ly up to 20 knots. Hasn't worked as yet, but, save this space because it may work one year.
Would be interested to hear from other boats but don't hold back or BS. We only race together a couple of time a year so the truth would be good and foster our sport.
cheers,

"Splinter"
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Chris Cope
Skipper

Australia
2350 Posts

Posted - 28 September 2005 :  6:16:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh yes! forgot the blooper. We have a white & I think, yellow coloured blooper which is stored under Rods house. Cannot see us ever using it. Would prefer the bigger light weight kite which I've been dreaming about for up to 12 knots. Like Kevin we may rashionalise our sail locker when we go for the newies as well as using exotics if the sailmaker thinks they are warrented.
Chris.
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Splinter
Helmsman

Australia
500 Posts

Posted - 28 September 2005 :  6:34:29 PM  Show Profile  Visit Splinter's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Chris, on the weekend you have got to show me this "Blooper", I have not an idea of what you are talking about. Please bring it and we will lay it out. I would imagine that is is a small heavy weather kite. ??
cheers,

"Splinter"
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Splinter
Helmsman

Australia
500 Posts

Posted - 28 September 2005 :  6:37:39 PM  Show Profile  Visit Splinter's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Guys, who ever does this wide format "Stop it" it a pain !!

"Splinter"
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